Mark Felt, Deep Throat and the Watergate Scandal Democracy Now! 2jun2005

Mark Felt, Deep Throat and the Watergate Scandal

Democracy Now! 2jun2005

Senators George McGovern and Mike Gravel Reflect on
How Deep Throat Helped Bring Down the Nixon Presidency
by Exposing the Watergate Scandal

We look back at President Nixon's political dirty tricks and intelligence-gathering operations that had helped Nixon win re-election over McGovern in 1972.

Richard Nixon graphic by göttlich -- Mark Felt, Deep Throat and the Watergate Scandal Democracy Now! 2jun2005

One of the great mysteries of American politics appears to have been solved: the identity of Deep Throat — the secret source that helped the Washington Post unravel the Watergate scandal. The June 1972 break-in at the Democrats' national headquarters in the Watergate office building eventually forced President Nixon to resign in order to avoid impeachment. In addition more than 30 government and Republican campaign officials were convicted of charges including perjury, burglary, wiretapping and obstruction of justice.

For over 30 years the Washington Post reporters who broke the story — Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein — refused to identify their source. They had vowed they would keep it secret until the source's death.

But on Tuesday the secret came out — not in the pages of the Washington Post but the monthly magazine Vanity Fair. Deep Throat was Mark Felt — the number two man in J. Edgar Hoover's FBI.

He is 91 years old and living in California. His family had asked an attorney by the name of John D. O'Connor to share his story that appeared in Vanity Fair.

In today's Washington Post, Woodward reveals that he first met Felt in 1970, by chance, at the White House. At the time, the 27-year-old Woodward was still serving in the Navy and had yet decided to pursue a career in journalism. Felt, he said, became a friend and a mentor. He also became Woodward's most important source for his biggest story ever.

Today we will look at the impact of Watergate 30 years later as well as the man who turned out to be Deep Throat. Later in the program we will examine Mark Felt's connection to the FBI's counter intelligence campaign known as COINTELPRO and the hunt for the Weather Underground.

But first we will look at the break-in of the Watergate hotel and how Mark Felt became Deep Throat.

Most Americans only know Deep Throat from the 1976 Oscar-winning movie, All the President's Men starring Robert Redford as Bob Woodward and Dustin Hoffman as Carl Bernstein. In the film, Deep Throat is portrayed by Hal Holbrook. This is a pivotal scene from the movie where Deep Throat is helping Woodward understand that the Watergate scandal extends all the way into the Oval Office. He also tells Woodward that Nixon's goal was to sabotage viable Democratic candidates.

• All The President's Men

We are joined now by former Senator George McGovern. He ran against Richard Nixon for president in 1972. He joins us on the phone from his home in South Dakota. We are also joined by former Senator Mike Gravel of Alaska. He was also serving in the Senate at the time of the Watergate break-in. He joins us in our Washington studio.

Sen. George McGovern, served as a Democratic Senator from South Dakota from 1963 to 1981. In 1972 he ran for president on the Democatic ticket ahead against Richard Nixon.
Sen. Mike Gravel, represented Alaska in the U.S. Senate from 1969-1981.

JUAN GONZALEZ: This is a pivotal scene from the movie where Deep Throat is helping Woodward understand the Watergate scandal extends all the way into the Oval Office. He also tells Woodward that Nixon's goal was to sabotage viable democratic candidates.

DEEP THROAT: Can't you understand what you're onto?

BOB WOODWARD: Mitchell knew?

DEEP THROAT: Of course, Mitchell knew. Do you think something this size just happens?

BOB WOODWARD: Haldeman had to know, too.

DEEP THROAT: You ain't getting nothing from me about Haldeman.

BOB WOODWARD: Segretti said...

DEEP THROAT: Don't concentrate on Segretti. You'll miss the overall.

BOB WOODWARD: The letter — the letter that destroyed the Muskie candidacy, the Canuck letter, did that come from inside the White House?

DEEP THROAT: You're missing the overall.

BOB WOODWARD: But what overall?

DEEP THROAT: They were frightened of Muskie and look who got destroyed. They wanted to run against McGovern. Look who they are running against. They bugged. They followed people. False press leaks, fake letters. They canceled democratic campaign rallies. They investigated democratic private lives. They planted spies, stole documents, and on and on. Don't tell me you think this is all the work of little Don Segretti.

AMY GOODMAN: A scene from the 1976 film, All the President's Men, Deep Throat speaking to Bob Woodward. We're joined now by former senator, George McGovern. He ran against Richard Nixon for president in 1972, joins us on the phone. We're also joined by former senator, Mike Gravel of Alaska, who was also serving in the Senate at the time of the Watergate break-in, who joins us in our Washington studio. Senator George McGovern, let's begin with you. Especially for the younger generation who is listening and watching right now, can you explain what Watergate was all about, the significance, and your response to the fact that it is Mark Felt, Deep Throat?

SEN. GEORGE McGOVERN: Well, Watergate really began, as far as the public is concerned, with the first news report that on June 19, 1972, seven men were caught in the middle of the night in Democratic headquarters, rifling our files. They came in equipped with burglar tools, with rubber gloves, all the stealth of a professional break-in. They had taped open the doors of the Democratic National Committee so they could move in silently and move out silently. But they were caught by an alert guard who noticed the taping on the doors, and the next morning, the story broke that seven people, apparently from the Nixon White House or the Nixon campaign command, had executed this deal. I remember vividly the story. It was a small, single column story on the front page of The Washington Post, maybe five or six inches long, not much in the way of detail. And that started off a revelation that eventually was to lead about a year-and-a-half after the election to the expulsion of Mr. Nixon from the White House. But it was a highly secretive operation, carried out by a crew of men, one of whom was found carrying a White House pass. Right from the beginning, I assumed that it was ordered from the top of the Nixon campaign, or the Nixon White House.

JUAN GONZALEZ: And can you talk, sir, about the — what it was like in Congress at the time, as the story was evolving, and many people looking back now assumed that everyone united against Nixon in terms of his involvement in this, but what was it like for you as a senator trying to unearth what was going on?

SEN. GEORGE McGOVERN: Well, of course, I was an announced candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination. I had already won a series of primary elections. This was almost exactly one month before our Democratic National Convention in Miami, Florida, where I actually officially won the Democratic nomination. So, obviously, I had a special interest in this because there appeared to be a conspiracy here. We didn't know why they broke into our headquarters. There were various explanations gave. I always had a hunch – and it's nothing more than a hunch, because we don't really have clear evidence of what they were after at our headquarters — that Nixon thought we must have had some information on him that we would use at a strategic point during the campaign, and probably had his people trying to find out what it was. It may be that they thought there was information that would be embarrassing to us. We don't really know that answer. There may be some people who know specifically what they were doing in our headquarters that night, but I have never known for sure what their motive was.

One of the interesting things about it is that the story had a splash for a few days, and then it seemed to kind of die out. The national media really didn't pick up on it all that much. I remember wondering at the time why that was not a major investigative story for the networks, for the metropolitan newspapers, for the national press as a whole, but it never got the attention at the time that I thought it deserved, nor did it get that attention during the forthcoming campaign. I used to talk about it in virtually every speech, but I must say, outside of these two cub reporters at The Washington Post who were working on the municipal desk, not on the national desk, the national media never really got into that story until after the 1972 election, five months later.

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to Senator George McGovern, who ran against Richard Nixon. Again, the Watergate break-in, a month before he was nominated to be the Democratic candidate. In the excerpt we just heard from All the President's Men, the conversation between Deep Throat and Bob Woodward, Woodward is raising the issue of Don Segretti, who was involved in these dirty tricks during the various democratic primaries, and Deep Throat saying to him that it was about bringing down Muskie so that Nixon could run for you — Nixon could run against you, McGovern.

SEN. GEORGE McGOVERN: That may have been one of their motives. I don't know. By that stage I had defeated Muskie in a whole series of primaries, including the two biggest ones, New York and California, and other significant primaries, such as New Jersey, Massachusetts, Wisconsin, Oregon. We had won some 11 primaries by that stage. So, it was quite clear, at least among voters who were participating in those large primaries, and that totaled up to millions of people, that I was the strongest candidate. When the campaign began months before, it looked like Hubert Humphrey or Ed Muskie would be the stronger contenders. They had been our nominees for president and vice president in 1968. They were older than I. They had been in politics longer. They were on the national scene longer. So, I suppose it might be concluded by some of the insiders of the Nixon campaign, that one of them would be the stronger of our candidates. That may have been one of their motives. I never really saw much evidence that — in that on campaign trail, but it's one theory that was promulgated, to beat Muskie and Humphrey so we can get at McGovern, who will be a less powerful candidate in the general election.

AMY GOODMAN: Senator McGovern, we have to break for stations to identify themselves, then we'll be back. And then we will turn to our exclusive interview here at Democracy Now! With Jennifer Dohrn. She was the target of many break-ins that were authorized by Mark Felt, Deep Throat, as number two man in the F.B.I. He ultimately was convicted for authorizing those break-ins and pardoned by President Reagan in the first months of his presidency.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: On the line with us, Senator George McGovern and Senator Mike Gravel in our Washington studio, Alaska senator from 1969 to 1981. He was the senator who read the Pentagon Papers into the Congressional record. Juan Gonzalez.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Senator Gravel. Welcome to Democracy Now!

SEN. MIKE GRAVEL: Thank you.

JUAN GONZALEZ: I'd like to ask you, one of the revelations that Woodward and Bernstein came up with as a result of some of their contact with Mr. Felt was that Nixon's top aide, John Ehrlichman, oversaw a special covert unit known as the “Plumbers” that burglarized the office of the psychiatrist of Daniel Ellsberg who leaked the Pentagon Papers. You are the senator who read the Pentagon Papers into the Congressional record. Your reaction to the revelations of the last few days?

SEN. MIKE GRAVEL: Surprise, like everybody else, and delighted that he has come forward in his lifetime, because he's really shown us what a whistleblower, a great whistleblower, can do for the benefit of the country.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk, Senator Gravel, about the significance of Watergate, and also what it means for government then and today?

SEN. MIKE GRAVEL: Secrecy is endemic to government activities, tragically so. It's part of human nature. And there's only one antidote to it, and that is for occasionally a courageous person will step forward and put his career and life at risk to tell the truth to the American people, tell the truth via the media, obviously. And that's what Mr. Felt did, was to recognize that in his capacity – and this is where a lot of the charges right now are: ‘well, he should have stayed within the law and performed his duties.’ Well, who was he reporting to? He was reporting to Gray, the head of the F.B.I., who was nothing but a Nixon hack. He was reporting to the Attorney General, who later — John Mitchell — who later went to jail for conspiring with Richard Nixon, or to the President himself. So he was boxed in and had no alternative, if he was going to out this criminality of the White House but to then use a friend of long standing that he could trust to pay out the information to keep the investigation alive and let these reporters do their job.

JUAN GONZALEZ: But isn't it in a sense ironic that the man who was a whistleblower over burglaries conducted by the White House was himself later convicted for burglaries that he supervised against anti-war and other activists in the — among the American people?

SEN. MIKE GRAVEL: There's no question that he probably broke the law, but keep in mind, they're tagging him. Hoover was alive then when this happened, and he was the number two man. So, obviously, he was following the orders of Hoover, and Hoover was now dead, and so he was the next person in line to go ahead and convict. They thought at the time, accurately or not, that the Weathermen, who had owned up to committing some acts of terrorism on our soil, they thought that there was some foreign influence. And therefore, they thought they had legality on their side to go ahead and do these surreptitious entries into the homes of some of these Weather people. Now, that they were convicted and pardoned — keep in mind, they were pardoned with a great deal of outpouring of support from agents of the F.B.I. Apparently Felt was very popular among the rank and file of the F.B.I., which says something about the man. But keep in mind, he was a protege of Herbert Hoover, who I think in many respects was very dastardly, but by the same token —

AMY GOODMAN: J. Edgar Hoover.

SEN. MIKE GRAVEL: Hoover, J. Edgar Hoover, who did want to protect the integrity of the F.B.I. from invasion by the hacks of the Nixon White House.

source: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/02/1445247#transcript 3jun2005

Jennifer Dohrn:
I Was The Target Of Illegal FBI Break-Ins
Ordered by Mark Felt aka "Deep Throat"

Mark Felt — who was exposed this week as Deep Throat — was one of only two FBI officials ever to be convicted for ordering COINTELPRO operations. In 1980 he was convicted for ordering FBI agents to break into the home of Dohrn and other associates of the Weather Underground. He was later pardoned by President Reagan. Jennifer Dohrn discusses the FBI surveillance, break-ins and a secret FBI proposal to kidnap her infant. Democracy Now! co-host Juan Gonzalez also reveals that as a leader of the Young Lords that he, too, was also a target of a similar FBI campaign.

On Tuesday the family of Mark Felt publicly said they hoped history would view him as hero for being Deep Throat. But not everyone is praising Felt. A group of former Nixon aides are criticizing him for betraying the Nixon administration.

Former Nixon advisor Pat Buchanan says Felt was "corrupt" for revealing White House secrets.

G. Gordon Liddy also criticized Felt. Liddy organized the break-in of the Democratic National Campaign headquarters in the Watergate complex. Liddy said:

"He's certainly not a hero because a law enforcement official who obtains knowledge of a commission of a crime, has the evidence of it and who did it and so forth, is ethically obliged to go to a grand jury, bring his evidence and so forth, so an indictment can be obtained and justice can be done. He didn't do that. Instead, he selectively leaked it to a single news source."

That was G. Gordon Liddy. Liddy himself was convicted conspiracy, burglary, and illegal wiretapping in connection to Watergate. He served four and a half years in prison before having his 20 year sentence commuted by President Jimmy Carter. While Felt's name will forever now be linked to helping expose the Watergate scandal, he is also connected to another dark moment in U.S. history — the FBI's counter intelligence program known as COINTELPRO.

Under the leadership of J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI carried out an extensive campaign of surveillance and neutralization of political groups including the Black Panthers, American Indian Movement, the Young Lords, and Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

In 1980, Mark Felt — along with Edward Miller — became the highest ranking FBI officials to be convicted of criminal charges since Hoover became head of the agency in 1924.

The two officials were convicted by a jury of conspiring to violate the constitutional rights of American citizens for ordering FBI agents to secretly break into the homes of friends and relatives of the militant anti-war group The Weather Underground.

In September 1980, government prosecutors said in court that Felt's actions were a "violation of the rights of all people of this country, violations that cannot and will not be tolerated as long as we have a Bill of Rights."

Felt and Miller were later pardoned by President Ronald Reagan who credited them for bringing a "end to the terrorism that was threatening our nation." In 1983 a federal judge ordered that Felt and Millers' criminal record be swept clean. Felt and Miller were the only FBI officials convicted in connection to COINTELPRO.

Felt never denied the the break-ins but argues they were done in the name of national security. He claimed that the Weather Underground had extensive ties to foreign powers and that break-ins were part of a foreign intelligence investigation.

****************************

Weather Underground Bernardine Dohrn, September 1969. Courtesy of the Chicago Historical Society

Bernardine Dohrn, September 1969.
photo: Chicago Historical Society

The Weather Underground Documentary: No Regrets
SF Chronicle 21jul03

We are joined now in our studio by Jennifer Dohrn who was the target of FBI break-ins ordered by Felt. Her sister, Bernadine Dorhn, was a a founder of the Weather Underground and was on the run from the federal government during the 1970s. Government documents show that FBI agents repeatedly broke into Jennifer's home. In 1978 she filed a civil suit against Felt and Miller. The suit was settled in 1983 out-of-court.

• Jennifer Dohrn, sister of Weather Underground member Bernadine Dohrn. Jennifer sued Mark Felt after it was revealed that he ordered FBI agents to secretly break-in to her home as well as other associates of the Weather Underground.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, let's turn to that story of the break-ins that the F.B.I. authorized. On Tuesday, the family of Mark Felt publicly said they hoped history would view him as a hero for being Deep Throat. This is Felt's grandson, Nick Jones.

NICK JONES: The family believes my grandfather, Mark Felt, Sr., is a great American hero who went well above and beyond the call of duty at much risk to himself to save his country from a horrible injustice. We all sincerely hope the country will see him this way, as well.

AMY GOODMAN: But not everyone is praising Mark Felt. A group of former Nixon aides are criticizing him for betraying the Nixon administration. Former Nixon advisor, Pat Buchanan, says Felt was corrupt for revealing White House secrets. G. Gordon Liddy also criticized Felt. Liddy organized the break-in of the Democratic National Committee headquarters in the Watergate complex.

G. GORDON LIDDY: He's certainly not a hero, because the law enforcement official who obtains knowledge of the commission of a crime and has the evidence of it, and who did it and so forth is ethically obliged to go to the grand jury and bring his evidence in there so an indictment can be obtained and justice can be done. He didn't do that. Instead, he selectively leaked it to a single news source.

AMY GOODMAN: That was G. Gordon Liddy. Liddy himself was convicted of conspiracy, burglary, and illegal wiretapping in connection with Watergate. He served four-and-a-half years in prison before having his twenty-year sentence commuted by President Jimmy Carter.

JUAN GONZALEZ: While Felt's name will forever now be linked to helping expose the Watergate scandal, he is also connected to another dark moment in U.S. history: the F.B.I.’s Counter Intelligence Program, known as COINTELPRO. Under the leadership of J. Edgar Hoover, the F.B.I. carried out an extensive campaign of surveillance and neutralization of political groups, including the Black Panthers, the American Indian Movement, the Young Lords and Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

AMY GOODMAN: In 1980, Mark Felt, along with Edward Miller became the highest ranking F.B.I. officials to be convicted of criminal charges since J. Edgar Hoover became head of the agency in 1924. The two officials were convicted by a jury of conspiring to violate the Constitutional rights of American citizens, for ordering F.B.I. agents to secretly break-into the homes of friends and relatives of the militant anti-war group, the Weather Underground. In September 1980, government prosecutors said in court that Felt's actions were a, (quote), “violation of the rights of all people of this country, violations that cannot and will not be tolerated as long as we have a Bill of Rights.”

JUAN GONZALEZ: Felt and Miller were later pardoned by President Ronald Reagan who credited them for bringing a, (quote), “end to the terrorism that was threatening our nation.” In 1983, a federal judge ordered that Felt and Miller's criminal record be swept clean. Felt and Miller were the only F.B.I. officials convicted in connection to COINTELPRO. Felt never denied the break-ins but argued that they were done in the name of national security. He claimed that the Weather Underground had extensive ties to foreign powers and that break-ins were part of a foreign intelligence investigation. We're joined now in our studio by Jennifer Dohrn, who was the target of F.B.I. break-ins ordered by Felt. Her sister, Bernadine Dohrn, was a founder of the Weather Underground and was on the run from the federal government during the 1970s. Government documents show that F.B.I. agents repeatedly broke into Jennifer's home. In 1978, she filed a civil suit against Felt and Miller. The suit was settled in 1983, out of court.

AMY GOODMAN: We welcome you to Democracy Now!, Jennifer Dohrn.

JENNIFER DOHRN: Thank you. Thank you for having me here today.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, it's good to have you with us. When you heard that Deep Throat had been revealed, and it was Mark Felt, your response?

JENNIFER DOHRN: My response was that history needed to be reviewed, re-looked at, re-examined, and this was a great time to look at the comparisons between what happened in the early 1970s to me and many others and what in fact is happening now around Iraq and the building of a counterintelligence system.

AMY GOODMAN: Tell us about what happened to you. Where did you live?

JENNIFER DOHRN: I lived in New York primarily. I was based in New York. I was very, very active in the anti-war movement and in support of the Black Freedom Movement and the Puerto Rican liberation struggle, and I was followed night and day by the F.B.I. I had my apartments, several apartments, wiretapped. Apartments next to me were rented by F.B.I. agents who kept continuous 24-hour surveillance of every sound made in my apartment. I was followed up and down the streets. I would get a job, the F.B.I. would go in after me, and I would then be fired from the job. It was around-the-clock harassment.

AMY GOODMAN: Were you aware of it at the time?

JENNIFER DOHRN: I was aware of a lot of it. I was certainly aware of being followed a lot. I was — assumed that perhaps my phones were tapped, and I had no idea of the level of extent under which I was being surveilled. I had no idea that break-ins were repeatedly happening into my apartments. I remember when I was pregnant with my first born feeling extremely vulnerable because I was being followed a great deal of the time, and then it was revealed when I received my Freedom of Information Act papers, over 200,000 documents, that there actually had been developed by Felt a plan to kidnap my son after I birthed in hopes of getting my sister to surrender. So, my imagination —

AMY GOODMAN: The F.B.I. plans?

JENNIFER DOHRN: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: To kidnap your son?

JENNIFER DOHRN: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: How did it say that in the documents?

JENNIFER DOHRN: It said that this was a plan that had been developed and ultimately was not implemented.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Well, —

JENNIFER DOHRN: Pretty amazing.

JUAN GONZALEZ: It became clear, I guess in the early 1980s, the extent of this — of the illegal break-ins and illegal activities. Wesley Swearingen, a former F.B.I. agent, actually testified that he had conducted – he was basically a full-time burglar for many years.

JENNIFER DOHRN: Like 238, or at least, he recorded.

JUAN GONZALEZ: At least 238 burglaries in Chicago and Los Angeles, and that New York there was a special squad of the F.B.I., Squad 47, that was basically assigned to find the Weathermen. Apparently J. Edgar Hoover was obsessed with the Weathermen, as were L. Patrick Gray who then succeeded him. And so, the presumption was that the main reason that they were surveilling you so much and burglarizing your apartments was in search for Bernadine Dohrn and her relationship to the Weathermen, right?

JENNIFER DOHRN: I think that was the primary assumption, but in fact, what was happening was great surveillance and breaking of the law, illegal acts, directed, authorized, built, engineered by Felt against the entire movement of protest. I think it's important, especially when I hear the earlier clips, it's being billed as Watergate brought down Nixon. My view is that the victory of the Vietnamese people and the vibrant movement in this country brought down Nixon. And the whistle-blowing to have Watergate be exposed was critical, but we have to set the record straight historically. And in fact, what was being done to me, which was severe and continual, was small compared to the strategy that was implemented by Felt against other movements in this country.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go for a minute to your sister, Bernadine Dohrn. She doesn't join us in the studio or on the phone, but I want to go back to an excerpt of a 2002 documentary called The Weather Underground. It goes back, way back, to the news clips.

BERNADINE DOHRN: My name is Bernadine Dohrn, and I was part of the Weather Underground from – well, it’s hard to say when it started — 1970 to 1980. I was underground for eleven years.

There's no way to be committed to non-violence in the middle of the most violent society that history has ever created. I'm not committed to non-violence in any way.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Bernadine Dohrn more recently and going back in those last comments in 1969. So, they were pursuing you to get her? Did they succeed?

JENNIFER DOHRN: Did they succeed in getting her? No. They never did. And they were also pursuing me because I represented one of many, many, many millions of voices in this country that said, “No more!” We were not going to stand for this war continuing in Vietnam. We were not going to stand for the extreme repression that was coming down against the Puerto Rican and Black and American Independence Movement. Really important that I was a symbol, and what happened to me was real, in search of my sister, but that COINTELPRO, which Mark Felt is responsible for really implementing was much wider than we ever have come to really understand.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, Mark Felt was the ultimately convicted. Government prosecuted him.

JENNIFER DOHRN: Yes. He actually was.

AMY GOODMAN: You didn't testify at that trial?

JENNIFER DOHRN: I was not asked to testify, and it's interesting that the concrete thing that he could be convicted of were burglaries against me and several other people, break-ins, which were documented and recorded. So we had evidence to convince him.

AMY GOODMAN: But you were cited many times in the trial.

JENNIFER DOHRN: Many times. And, in fact, after his conviction, he was pardoned by Reagan, his first act in office, and we conducted a civil suit. And the reason that I participated in the civil suit against Mark Felt was because I did feel that his actions against me, the break-ins, were just the tip of the iceberg. And the only way to really get public attention and knowledge to what was happening to the Black Movement and to the Puerto Rican Movement in this country were to get at these documents.

AMY GOODMAN: What did you settle for?

JENNIFER DOHRN: We settled for minimal. It was essentially closed. We settled for basically lawyers' fees. By the early 1980s, the ability to get F.O.I.A. files was already being restricted. And now it's seriously jeopardized, as a way to have some transparency or accountability for what this counterintelligence network is about in this country.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Well, you know, I can testify, having been a member of the Young Lords back in those days that the numerous break-ins that occurred in the homes of Young Lord members, including my own, back in 1972, clearly were political break-ins and that people — that the things that were stolen had nothing to do with valuable goods of a drug dealer, but were clearly break-ins looking for material and information, and I remember back in 1972, when I was arrested by 13 F.B.I. agents for violating the selective service laws at the time and refusing to serve in Vietnam, I was questioned for about eight hours at F.B.I. headquarters before I was arraigned, and virtually all of the questions that the F.B.I. agents asked me were not about the Young Lords, not about the selective service, but were: When was the last time you saw Bernadine Dohrn? When was the last time that you saw Robbie Roth? When was the last time you saw Mark Rudd? They were obsessed with finding the Weathermen and being able to break a group that they saw sending a bad signal of white progressive Americans and radical Americans uniting with the Black and Latino liberation struggles at the time.

AMY GOODMAN: So when you heard that Mark Felt was Deep Throat, I bet you haven't realized for all of these years that you had a connection to Deep Throat, Juan?

JUAN GONZALEZ: Right, that he authorized some break-ins of my apartments.

JENNIFER DOHRN: Well, I was repeatedly stopped and was brought into stations saying I was Bernadine Dohrn just as a form of harassment, obviously. She was safely tucked in the Underground. But I think the ability, our being white, educated, that we could get into the Pentagon or the Capitol or any place we wanted, we were supposed to be the future dream of what they wanted — the government wanted to do, and instead, we decided to ally ourselves, rightly so, with the struggle for justice in this world. And so the passion to get us was intense.

AMY GOODMAN: President Reagan said, when he pardoned Mark Felt, four years ago, “Thousands of draft evaders and others who violated the selective service laws were unconditionally pardoned by my predecessor.” He was talking about Carter. Reagan said, “America was generous to those who refused to serve their country in the Vietnam War. We can be no less generous to two men who acted on high principle to bring an end to the terrorism that was threatening our nation.” Your response, Jennifer Dohrn?

JENNIFER DOHRN: I would really ask who is committing the terrorism, and that what we were doing was legitimate protest for our civil rights and for rights of people around the world and that this has to be preserved today. I mean, if anything, this story of Mark Felt coming out now should be for people in this country to really look at the challenge to our civil rights, what's happening with this immoral war in Iraq, and ask for accountability. That's what needs to be done. So, that's the legacy of Mark Felt, the legacy should be to look at his responsibility for acts that authorized repression, murder, imprisonment of people for life, Herman Bell, David Gilbert, Leonard Peltier and took away civil rights from people who were dissenting. This is supposed to be democracy now.

AMY GOODMAN: It's interesting you raise Leonard Peltier, because in his memoirs, Mark Felt’s memoir, The F.B.I. Pyramid, he wrote of his involvement in overseeing the activities of the F.B.I. during the 1973 occupation of Wounded Knee by members of the American Indian Movement. AIM members have accused him of having a significant role in hatching an illegal counterintelligence program targeting AIM.

JENNIFER DOHRN: So this should be the legacy of Mark Felt, and this should be the historical record that gets set straight. I do support people whistleblowing, I think it's been critical in terms of what's going on in Iraq, torture at Guantanamo Bay. All of these things have to be brought out, but his — we need a balanced view of his responsibility.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Jennifer Dohrn, I want to thank you very much for being with us. Jennifer Dohrn here in our studio at Democracy Now! And if you want to see the transcripts, you can go to our website at DemocracyNow.org, and pass on information about Democracy Now! to people around the world who might not know about it. Thank you, Jennifer.

JENNIFER DOHRN: Thank you.

AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, DemocracyNow.org. We'll go to a break, then we'll return with investigative journalist, David Wise.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: Just before we go to investigative journalist, David Wise, with Jennifer Dohrn still in our studio, I think there was one last story we wanted to hear from you, and that was a trophy that the burglars got when they broke into your apartment.

JENNIFER DOHRN: Right. Apparently on one of the break-ins, they took a pair of my underwear and put it in a glass case and gave it as a trophy gift to Mark Felt.

JUAN GONZALEZ: And this was discovered how?

JENNIFER DOHRN: This was discovered – it was actually leaked to me by someone in the press years later who had gone over my F.O.I.A. files.

AMY GOODMAN: Jennifer Dohrn, thanks for joining us.

source: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/02/1445253 3jun2005

Investigative Journalist David Wise on the
Significance of Watergate, Anonymous Sources and the
Crackdown on Civil Liberties

In 1981 Wise criticized President Reagan's pardon of Mark Felt for ordering FBI agents to conduct secret break-ins. Wise said the pardon sent a "clear message to the intelligence agencies: The President of the United States approves of Government burglaries."

We are joined now by investigative journalist David Wise. He is the coauthor of The Invisible Government, a number one bestseller about the CIA. He is also the author of Nightmover, Molehunt, The Spy Who Got Away, The American Police State, and The Politics of Lying. In 1981 he wrote a column in the New York Times criticizing President Reagan for pardoning Mark Felt – the man who we now know was Deep Throat.

Wise began his column by writing: “President Reagan's pardon of two high Federal Bureau of Investigation officials who were convicted of authorizing illegal break-ins sends a clear message to the intelligence agencies: The President of the United States approves of Government burglaries.

“One can visualize the intelligence operators" breaking out the champagne at F.B.I. headquarters in the J. Edgar Hoover Building and across the river at the Central Intelligence Agency, in Langley, Va. ?“The meaning of Mr. Reagan's action was immediately grasped by W. Mark Felt, one of the pardoned F.B.I. officials: "This is going to be the biggest shot in the arm for the intelligence community for a long time.” We are joined now by David Wise in our Washington studio.

• David Wise, the coauthor of The Invisible Government, a number one bestseller about the CIA. He is also the author of Nightmover, Molehunt, The Spy Who Got Away, The American Police State, and The Politics of Lying. David is also the former chief of the Washington bureau of the New York Herald Tribune.

JUAN GONZALEZ: We are now joined by investigative journalist, David Wise. He’s the coauthor of The Invisible Government, a number one bestseller about the CIA. He’s also the author of Nightmover, Molehunt, The Spy Who Got Away, The American Police State, and The Politics of Lying. In 1981 he wrote a column in the New York Times, criticizing President Reagan for pardoning Mark Felt, the man who we now know was Deep Throat.

AMY GOODMAN: David Wise began his column by writing, (quote), “President Reagan's pardon of two high Federal Bureau of Investigation officials who were convicted of authorizing illegal break-ins sends a clear message to the intelligence agencies: The President of the United States approves of government burglaries. One can visualize the intelligence operators breaking out the champagne at F.B.I. headquarters in the J. Edgar Hoover building and across the river at the Central Intelligence Agency in Langley, Virginia. The meaning of Mr. Reagan's action was immediately grasped by Mark Felt, one of the pardoned F.B.I. officials. He said, ‘This is going to be the biggest shot in the arm for the intelligence community for a long time.’” Again, that quote from a piece, an op-ed piece, that appeared in The New York Times that was written by David Wise, who is in the studio with us in Washington. Welcome to Democracy Now! It’s good to you have us with, David.

DAVID WISE: Thank you, Amy.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about that moment when Mark Felt, now we know as Deep Throat was pardoned by President Reagan?

DAVID WISE: Well, I was not invited to drink any of that champagne, you can be sure. But I did feel that, given what he had been convicted of and another FBI official, Ed Miller, had been convicted of —they weren't sentenced to jail time, they were fined a total of $8,500, I believe. And so, they weren't going to prison, and I felt that therefore the conviction could stand because it was sending the wrong message about illegal break-ins, and in that same article, I quoted from William Pitt, the Elder, about ‘the poorest man in England in his humble cottages can defy the crown,’ that, you know, ‘the roof may be frail and the wind may blow through it and the storm may enter and the wind may enter, but the King of England may not enter.’ And that's what the Fourth Amendment is all about. And of course, the break-ins were not defensible and they were illegal, and indeed, the two officials were convicted for that.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Well, David Wise, in some of the early reporting, there's been suggestions that the original whistleblowing of Mr. Felt may not have been as altruistic as suggested, because he himself was upset over having been passed over for F.B.I. director after J. Edgar Hoover's death. Your take on that?

DAVID WISE: Well, it's very difficult to see into – I mean, do we know ourselves? Do we know anyone? Very difficult to peer into the mind of a person to know motivation. So, I'm very leery of trying to ascribe motives. He may have been—undoubtedly was—irritated and angered that he’d been passed over and that the head of the F.B.I. was L. Patrick Gray, who distinguished himself by burning evidence with the Christmas trash, important Watergate evidence. And Mark Felt must have felt that, after his career, he deserved to be named as the successor to J. Edgar Hoover. On the other hand, it's clear from this morning's Washington Post, where Bob Woodward is writing about how he first met Mark Felt, as a very young man—he, Woodward, was a very young man and they met in the White House where Woodward was in the Navy and was assigned to bring over some materials at the White House; Felt was waiting to see someone, and they struck up a conversation. And so, it is now clear for the first time that their relationship did not begin with the shooting of George Wallace, which Woodward had previously indicated. He called Mark Felt up when he was a young reporter about that, and then later in Watergate. It went way back to an earlier time, and so they had a continuing relationship because of this chance meeting in the White House, and Woodward's ability to ingratiate himself with Mark Felt. So, if that's true — and I have no reason to doubt it, and it's all over page one of the Washington Post this morning — then it may be that Felt's motivation was to help this young man, to whom he had taken a shine, and that was part of their long-term relationship.

AMY GOODMAN: We're talking to investigative reporter, David Wise, who continues to do his investigations. His specialty is the intelligence agencies and cultivating sources within them, breaking news right until now. David Wise is one of those, by the way – is the person who broke the story of “Curve Ball,” who was the source – one of the sources for Powell, then Secretary of State Colin Powell's speech at the United Nations alleging weapons of mass destruction. I wanted to go to this issue of anonymous sources, because so often Deep Throat is used an example of why they're very important, vindicating many reporters today who use anonymous sources in a very different way, to not name government officials who basically use reporters to spread lies, like weapons of mass destruction. Your comments.

DAVID WISE: Well, let me talk a little about the “Curve Ball” matter, and tell you how it came about, and why I think it was important. This was spreading information that was true about something that wasn't true, and what I mean is this: Last year, I was one of four writers asked by Vanity Fair magazine, which has been rather in the news these days because they broke the story of Deep Throat's identity as Mark Felt. I was asked to participate in a story we wrote just a year ago called "The Path to War." It was about how we got into this terrible mess in Iraq; and one of the sources that I was able to interview, I will say that it was an official of the government, and this source said to me that there was a person who was in Germany and whom the C.I.A. had not been permitted to interview by the German intelligence authorities, and that this source, later identified as “Curve Ball,” — because I didn't know and we didn't print his name at that time because we didn't know it, but it later emerged he was talking about the same person we now know as “Curve Ball,” a wonderfully appropriate name for the information he provided. The information he provided which is now shown to be entirely suspect was that he had personally witnessed a production run of biological weapons, germ weapons, at a mobile laboratory inside Iraq. You remember there was a great deal of fuss about mobile laboratories, which as it turns out didn't exist. And so, Colin Powell, in February of 2003, on the eve of the Iraq war, relied on this man, this “Curve Ball,” as our story indicated, as one of four witnesses, anonymous sources (the government was using anonymous sources) who knew something about the so-called biological mobile laboratory production, which was a fantasy that we now know it didn't happen. Colin Powell relied on that in a speech that seemed at the time quite persuasive to many Americans. The anonymous source who told me about this, I think was doing a service to not only the readers of Vanity Fair, but anyone else who picked up that story. We now know that much of what Powell was saying wasn't true; and in the case of “Curve Ball,” I think I’ve demonstrated that this was an important piece of information to put out to the public. And it was a source who asked me not to be named, and I had to agree, you know, when — when someone provides you with information, and says, on condition that you not name that person, you have to abide by that understanding.

JUAN GONZALEZ: And, in terms of the lessons for – the climate – political climate today and the government's increasing expansion of its ability to conduct surveillance of American citizens, any lessons from the Watergate era that would be valuable for our listeners to grasp?

DAVID WISE: Well, I think there is a parallel between that era and the concern over terrorism today. We’ve always in this country in my lifetime have had an enemy, a perceived enemy, whether it was communism during the Cold War, then the Weather Underground that you’ve been talking about today, and now the terrorists from the Middle East. There's always been a perceived enemy, and there's always been a tension between the desire to protect against that perceived enemy and the freedoms that our Constitution and our way of life tries to protect; and that tension we can see now, today, with the concern over the U.S.A. PATRIOT Act, for example, and the abuses that were mentioned earlier at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib prison. There is always a tug-of-war between the forces that want to protect our liberties and the forces that see the outside threat or the internal threat as the real problem. And really, the problem is to keep our eye on the ball, to preserve our own way of life, our own values, because if we lose that, we become just like this perceived enemy; and I remember the wonderful quote during the Vietnam era of the military officer who told a reporter, “We had to destroy the village in order to save it.” So, that I think is what we have to keep in mind.

AMY GOODMAN: David Wise, we want to thank you very much for being with us, an investigative reporter based in Washington, D.C.

source: JUAN GONZALEZ: We are now joined by investigative journalist, David Wise. He’s the coauthor of The Invisible Government, a number one bestseller about the CIA. He’s also the author of Nightmover, Molehunt, The Spy Who Got Away, The American Police State, and The Politics of Lying. In 1981 he wrote a column in the New York Times, criticizing President Reagan for pardoning Mark Felt, the man who we now know was Deep Throat.

DAVID WISE: Thank you, Amy.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about that moment when Mark Felt, now we know as Deep Throat was pardoned by President Reagan?

JUAN GONZALEZ: Well, David Wise, in some of the early reporting, there's been suggestions that the original whistle-blowing of Mr. Felt may not have been as altruistic as suggested, because he himself was upset over having been passed over for F.B.I. director after J. Edgar Hoover's death. Your take on that?

AMY GOODMAN: David Wise, we want to thank you very much for being with us, an investigative reporter based in Washington, D.C.

source: http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/06/02/1445257 3jun2005

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